Rowan : Conan, thank you for agreeing to do this episode. I really appreciate you being here.
Conan : Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
Rowan : So you do a lot of different things impact assessments within government, crane estimates or repairs through your own business, and supporting your brother in law's tour business. You've also had a very diversified career path, having worked with youth as both counselor and substitute teacher as well as inmates; were all these career avenues planned or do they tend to happen by accident?
Conan : I think they're a happy accidents. Some of them were planned and ironically, when they're all planned out and I think I'm going in One Direction, I take a right turn, I end up estimating crane repairs, which a lot of people would think, especially with my disability, being cerebral palsy and walking with a cane, you know, very not your usual pairing — let's put it that way.
And the fact that I was able to thrive under that and be able to work with the technicians, never having to leave the office, and relying on their expertise and photographs when they go to site to offer repairs. The fact that when I did that full time for 2 1/2 years, the average amount of money that I would be able to generate for my company was $2.2 million, goes to show that even under those interesting circumstances, you can be successful.
Rowan : Absolutely. So, what drives you in all this work, given that your experiences cover so many different playing fields, is there a common denominator that ties them all together for you?
Conan : I think it's the people, the fact that, you know, when I get to know — like I said —the technicians or the students, if when I'm a teacher, and that I'm the first person with the disability that they often have the opportunity to be exposed to, that they, they start to understand that what they've been shown in the media or what they understand is what makes a person with a disability is not exactly always accurate.
And because of my ability to talk frankly and openly and usually use some humor to be disarming if that's their first experience, that's usually a very welcomed beginning.
Rowan : We've talked a couple of times and it's become very clear that people really do motivate you. You don't just say that you mean it and you live it. In your own experience with disability, do you find your self-advocacy for accommodations is an uphill battle a lot of the time, or are people generally willing to help?
Conan : I think due to the fact that I don't really haven't needed a lot of the changes I can advocate from a different angle saying I don't need a special computer. For example, I don't need any special office supplies, so I think on one hand, they're surprised that they don't need as many accommodations or changes at that. And even when I do, in the case of saying needing transportation, because I don't drive, for example, I need a cab, I'm always the one offering to pay. So they they're kind of disarmed by the fact that A) I'll find a solution myself or B) that I don't really need as many accommodations.
But then when I tell them that I'm lucky in that sense that I can also advocate for myself and know how to word it, and can anticipate the accommodation we're requiring that the people are often more than willing to jump in and give me help.
Rowan : That's really interesting that you can sort of take that position as someone living with disability that impacts you every day. You still approach it from that allyship lens, right?
Conan : Yeah. I try to be like in a sense, disarming and also coming from the lens of wanting to be independent. So I don't, I don't ask often for help, but when I really do need it, I usually come up with a multiple solutions and or people that can give me a hand. So if one person I'm not relying on one person to solve the problem or to give me the hand. I usually have two or three.
Rowan : That leads me to my next question, which is more about your experience in government. I think one thing most people will agree on is that there's always more that can be done in the realm of accessibility.
You mentioned to me that you have been in government for five years and in that time, how much progress have you seen towards more accessible processes and accessible outcomes?
Conan : I think the success that we have to to look at is the fact that there's more of a willingness to actually have a true conversation about it. And when I first started in government, I noticed that it was very politically kind of cleaned or bleached and the sense that was very scripted, didn't, you know- Didn't really go outside the box. Didn't really talk about peoples’ personal experiences.
And so that's why I brought in the Full Access blog that I started when I first joined Government, which basically focused on the actual real-life experiences of the employees of government and how they tackled their barriers and challenges. And of course, in order to do this correctly, I put my story first and explained my disability and how I saw it and the drive to be independent and to be an active member to my community and saying every following month we need to find somebody who will then share their story. And so it won't just be an echo Chamber of my own thoughts every every edition with somebody new, with somebody else's challenges. And it was very successful. They had over 2000 views on every post back when it was at work and we had over about 25 comments per article, so it was quite such.
Rowan : And you mentioned having mentored two WorkAble placements after having been one yourself. Can you tell us more about that program and what impact it has on people with disabilities?
Conan : So, I actually stumbled upon it by accident working program. My friend found it when I was having difficulty finding work. Being in counseling, they kind of require- or they changed the scope of how a lot of people do counseling now with driving to clients’ houses. So I didn't have a driving license and didn't have the First Aid in terms of the second level that often they would like to have. So I was kind of having difficulty finding work at the time and he pointed me to this WorkAble program and it took me a few shots to get in and once I did it's been very successful in terms of creating a career that I never thought I would have in public service. And so I wanted to give back and make it a little bit easier for the people coming from behind that we might have the similar struggles, but not the same type of network that I had to allow me to come through on the other end.
So, the program is giving me that idea of career where I'm not limited, whereas in the crane business, if I wasn't an estimator they didn't have any much upward mobility for me in that regard. So I took a huge pay cut being a WorkAble intern where it was about 43,000 a year.
I was offered an $80,000 of the crane business to be the manager at the time and I turned it down for future prosperities. And by this time in April, I should be making that same 80,000. So five year plan and having that goal and objective. So that's what I hope to do for other workable interns by giving them guidance and hopefully allowing it to be a little bit of an easier road. To give you a sense, I did over 120 applications to get my current permanent position.
Rowan : Wow. Wow. Yeah, that's a lot. I mean, applying for jobs is typically just full time job in itself, right?
Conan : And then doing this on the side so you can imagine the work ethic.
Rowan : Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, not everybody has that. So especially living with disabilities- tend to have less energy sometimes for that job application process. And I was just, I was just thinking about the fact that you know the workable program you, you get into government and you're an intern, so you don't- you aren't making maybe as much as you'd like, but it really does open that door.
Conan : Well, you gotta also imagine that government, the way they require you to get in the whole process of applying is kind of a different language. It's not the same as a private industry. How you apply or if you know somebody, it's easier to get maybe in networking wise from the private sector. So to understand that way to navigate the application process and to be successful at it, and the fact that when you're working while injured, for example, you have about four months by the end of the program so that they can get full use out of the intern in terms of what they're paying for.
So you have four months from the time you're going to start applying for full time positions to getting a permanent. I was lucky where I got extensions for a year and a half so they still needed my help, but the SDPR or Social Development Poverty Reduction side of things, but not everybody's so lucky to get that extra time on the clock. So people bought in with me staying because I made that networking and made that personal connection with so many people.
Rowan : We've talked a bit about direct actions within the government we both have experience with, which are good examples of things that other governments and large organizations can do if they aren't already. But taking a step back to look at the bigger picture, how do you see government’s responsibility towards designing for accessibility or ensuring digital accessibility is accounted for?
Conan : Well being the the largest employer for people and they're wanting to be at an example essentially as an employer moving forward, there's a large percentage of people with disabilities that are not being hired and they are being left behind. So the fact is, if you're wanting to tap in, there's a benefit tapping as an employer tapping into that well of quality employees that often have degrees or masters or even sometimes PHD's. The amount of PhD students that I saw are, you know, students that I saw as a cohort in the WorkAble program for example, I think there was at least three or four. So there is talent there in that pool. So it's a benefit.
But it's also a responsibility in the sense that if you're, if you're able to move forward with the population that's being left behind and be able to bring them on with everybody and to be able to have them being an active member, it's a better workplace because you’re getting more ideas, possibilities in terms of, you know, how people see the world.
But you're also getting them to not have to be reliant on the social welfare system and being actually able to pay taxes and be an active member of society. I think that that would be the goal for anybody if they had the choice. So to be from the government standpoint to be able to make the application process easier by making it more digitally friendly for people who are using, say, speaking software like JAWS for example, or having the workplace being more accessible by having automatic doors or proper work area or maybe working from home option or possible.
That's just small tweaks that you can make to unlock possibilities. So there's actual, you know, I understand that people always say, well, we gotta help this side of the of the population, you know. But it's actually there's a huge benefit for the employer on the other end if they want to tap into it.
Rowan : Yeah, I heard multiple things there, so it's economically better to hire people with disabilities because they're less reliant on other programs and it's important to have people with disabilities in your organization so that you get those lenses so that you can design with them in mind because they're representing other people as well.
Conan : And often, because people with disabilities are overlooked and or let go at the first time with trouble with any kind of private company — I'm just speaking in generalities — there was actually multiple studies that showed that people who were hired with the disability were more loyal to any company. So they're often staying with employers and take less days off in terms of- whether that's out of fear of being the first on the chopping block or it's just the idea that they want to be active in the workplace and or paying it forward. The stats are there too, to show that we're very good working employees when given the opportunity.
Rowan : Yeah, I mean, you definitely hope that it's not out of fear, but-
Conan : Well, you gotta factor that in sometimes.
Rowan : It’s true. So there's always a big debate — this is kind of in that vein — about accessibility in any regard, whether it's disabilities, environmental sustainability, barrier-free resources, what have you, on whether we should be taking a top-down or bottom-up approach. Some people feel that it's the individual’s responsibility and it's on each of us to do better. Whatever “do better” means in any given context. And some people feel that it's government's responsibility to “do better” because they hold the most power.
Given that you are both a citizen and a public servant, and you've seen how things work in government, what's your take on that top down versus bottom-up approach?
Conan : Oh, that's a good question. I think from my personal experience as being a person who usually advocates for myself, I think it's important to know and communicate out in terms of your employer or anybody else's friends or anyhow what your weaknesses are, where you need assistance. Because in order for them to get the true quality of what they're looking for you, whether it's there and they need to know.
And a lot of times people need to build that trust first. So that is the bottom side of it. Where you're building from a supervisor standpoint, they also would like to know we're human beings would we want to be- Sometimes we want to dig deep and we want to see what, you know, they want to get to know everybody. And sometimes it requires knowing your limitations.
So I think it's on both sides of the aisle. Whether you're looking at government supervisors, they would like to have the opportunity creating the environment where people feel comfortable and safe to share. But then it's also the same responsibility. It relies on the employees. So if I don't tell people that I'm walking with the cane and I go in there in the interview and then- or if I did a digital interview and then come in on my first day of work walking with a cane, it's gonna cause a bit of a stir, you know. Because they're saying well, “We didn't know. We didn't expect.”
And so there's that aspect where, because I'm a visible minority, people know I can't hide it. People know right away where my limitation is, but it's allowed me to be more vocal. Where somebody with a hidden disability, say mental health or what have you, they have that option where they can hide it if they choose to, as long as possible. But it might cause some issues and anxiety down the road and it's more difficult to create an open communication slash trust if the person is not worth coming. So it's kind of a depends on how you see the world, but I've always been ideal about being upfront and being honest.
And it seems to have got me to where, yeah, I might have challenges finding the right employer, but the ones that I do find, I've been very lucky and very fortunate to have, who are very good at advocating for me and going to bat where necessary and then feel invested in my journey.
Rowan : That's great. So if I understand correctly, it's on us to represent ourselves and self advocate. It's also on government to make certain opportunities possible. So there has to be a way to meet in the middle.
Conan : Yes, otherwise it's only one person pulling the wagon and the other person still who's sitting on the wagon and expecting to get there but not putting in their effort.
How much can you say did you do to change that environment? How much can you say that you helped to get to that final journey? To use that example. I think it requires both parties to be invested and that requires again communication and honesty and just the idea that to get the most out of both parties that's required.
Rowan : Yeah. And to jump on that metaphor wagon, if you're both pulling it, you can get there in double time, right?
Conan : Exactly. And then you feel like you've both earned to get there as well.
Rowan : What are some things you are seeing on the horizon that excites you about accessibility within government?
Conan : Well, I I always go back to the idea that there's more communication happening that seems to be more honest and and progressive in the sense that it's- and the idea that we're we're working on digital toolkits, we're having an idea, there's challenges so trying to get different ministries to be aware of, say you’re making a PowerPoint more accessible, a Word document more accessible. So there’s those conversations on how to slightly change the workplace to make it already integrated so it's not an afterthought. And I think that that's slowly changing things. And of course with the digital AI and things happening and working from home, I always tell people that COVID the one benefit that I can tell you that COVID had for me was that it's opened up more opportunities.
And having as you said in your opening, having so many opportunities working from home, then I I have to now clone myself to have some free time!
But before you know, like I said, before I was in government, I didn't have the- when I didn't have the WorkAble program, and I was looking for a job and it required a driver's license, I would not even apply after a while, because I knew that that would be a major roadblock. So that has opened up the door to allow people who would either need to stay home, to work for whatever reason, or have the limitation of travel, gives them an opportunity to still be part of the employment.
Rowan : Amazing. I'd like to focus back on your own personal experiences for the last little bit of this episode. We've had a couple of conversations at this point, each time actually by accident.
Conan : Laughing The more natural way to do things!
Rowan : Laughing Yeah, we both thought about a meeting that nobody else is having.
Conan : Ha ha ha ha! It is meant to be. Yeah.
Rowan : Yeah. What I have taken away is that you come across as a very positive person with a lot of stories. In your own life and career so far, what do you feel you've done that has made the most impact? And do you have any stories related to the impact you've had?
Conan : I think just by, you know, I'll give you an example. I've walked down the same street here on downtown Yates so many times and I've had people stop me and say, you know, “I've seen you everyday walking to work. I just want to say you’re an inspiration.”
And I said all I'm doing is I'm walking to work. It's not an inspiration to me, but if it's an example to somebody else and that's how they take it, then I'm happy to leave that impression.
You know, to again having that be their first example with somebody with his disability. That's a good first impression to have. The fact that I've had roommates when I was in university for nine years having a different variety of people learning how to interact with those people communicate.
I had one individual who had a very rough high school experience, who liked to stay in his room pretty much all the time. He was not very sociable in the sense that, you know, you would like to be, especially if you're living with him. And he was having difficulty. And all I did was, I would go into his room, knock on his door, get permission to enter and just say, “how was your day?” And he was the type of individual that would expect you to have an agenda. So if, you know, would you want something therefore you're coming to him. That's the only reason you're coming. You don't have any- There's no positiveness to it. It's just a means to an end. You just try, you know. Take care of the early conversations of how you're doing, you get to your point, you know.
And so when I say "how was your day, do you want to have one of my beers? Do you want to relax,” you know? And he would say, “OK, is there something you want to say?” I’d say, “No, I'm just asking how your day was.” So I would do that day after day for four months with no exceptions. And eventually he started coming out of his room and being more sociable.
And he told me about a year and a half later, he said that that he'd pissed him off to something awful that he couldn't figure out what the goal was. Until he says, “you know, you helped to change the environment and or the way I saw the environment.” So now he was moving in with his girlfriend at the time.
And he said that, you know, he wished that there was more room in their apartment so that she could stay and he could stay because he really appreciated how we all became kind of a communal aspect. The fact that I, for example, I bought a TV and a PlayStation and instead of putting it in my room, I put it in the common room where everybody — and four controllers — so that they could play together. The amount of times that we were, if we had a bad day or we were upset with one another to put on a game that we could all play by within an hour, everybody forgot what they were mad about.
You know, it's that kind of fostering the type of environment that leaves the impression.
Rowan : So you change someone's life by asking them how they're doing every.
Conan : Every day for four months. I think he thought I was a bit insane.
Both laughing
He couldn't figure it out. That was the beauty of it. Because he had such a view in the world or his experience at that point was that somebody always wanted something out of him or didn't have that intention. So by just asking how his day was and by doing it consistently. And then he came out and he was much better socially and he got much more out of his university experience. Just by that, that that little effort put in.
Rowan : Well, that's a life lesson I'm taking away today.
Conan : There you go.
Rowan : Thank you again for spending the time to do this. Is there anything that you wanted to share that I didn't ask you about? Anything extra that you'd want to add?
Conan : Just the idea like, or moving forward, we're gonna actually be- I'm putting a resolution forward to the union to allow for WorkAble interns to have health benefits. So because currently when I was in the program they'll give you 3% in lieu benefits of a top up so to speak. But I've always said that people with disabilities frequent services more, they usually might require equipment and or prescriptions. So I put the resolution forward to be part of the 2025 agreement and if I get elected as the candidate slash like a person to put it to represent that bill I'll make sure to put that in there. And hopefully get that fixed so that more people can come in through those channels and leaving a legacy behind.
Rowan : That's fantastic. So if you happen to be living in BC and listening to this podcast, there might be some opportunities coming up. If you're a person with disabilities, right?
Conan : Exactly. And the fact that you would now join the WorkAble program hopefully in the future that even though you have a disability if you require a certain amount of additional assistance that will be covered for you when you come through.
Rowan : That's fantastic. We’ll make sure to put some links to the WorkAble program in the notes section of this podcast so anybody can check them out. It's been a delight to get to know you more in accidental meetings, and in this podcast. And your perspective on accessibility, government, and the legacy you're leaving is something that does inspire me. And yeah, I I hope that anyone listening to this has taken away just your outlook because you've got a good outlook.
I thank you again for being part of this podcast and taking the time. I know that you're super busy.
Conan : Anytime I'm happy to and like I said, if this helps to get somebody to be inspired and or with the WorkAble program, which actually they're opening up their application so people can apply for sure with this is a very timely recording. And the idea that if it also gets people to see disability as a whole differently and accessibility as a whole differently then I've done my job.
So sometimes it's not about the money or the opportunity, because a lot of this is done at the side of my desk, but it's the legacy like I said, where people changing one life at a time and changing the perspective is worth it's weight in gold.
Rowan : Thanks Conan. Hope you have a great rest of your day.
Conan : You, too. Take care.
